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Unread Apr 17th, 2007, 09:21 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default GUNS, what to do about 'em

i figure i need to know how the DI family feels about guns

first read this:http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thre...329&#paginator


i have a problem: i want guns but they should never have existed. and if we're gonna bann all guns, i say, authorities first!
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Unread Apr 17th, 2007, 10:23 AM   #2 (permalink)
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For what it's worth, I don't see ANY need for handguns.
The purpose they serve is not justified.

I'm not against guns. I grew up in a hunting environment...hell, who in MN didn't!

But I don't know what the answer should be.
If I were to take a stab at it I'd say that assault rifles and handguns have no place in society. Their conception was out of need to kill humans.

So...is it anti-American to think handguns and assault rifles should be banned with SEVERE punishment for those even found in possession of one?

As far as I can tell, it still is in keeping with our constitutional right to bear arms.

If I'm wrong, toss me an argument in defense of handguns. I'm all for hearing all thoughts.
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Unread Apr 17th, 2007, 10:27 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Its scattered, i know.

I live in a town where it is legal to carry concealed weapons... which honestly scares the shit out of me. First off, this is a college town, and in my opinion, a place where there are a lot of disgruntled, stressed, depressed, underpriviledged, and politically charged individuals. What better place to allow people to carry guns. Here is my point: so we can own a gun and carry a gun, but shooting someone is illegal. So clearly, as it seems that many people dont have compassion for other living things, and have no ability to control their anger, a law that 'discourages' murder clearly isnt enough to keep it from happening. Should we be able to carry guns? hell no. What is the point? 1. we dont need them on a daily basis, for sure. 2. No interaction requires a gun, for the majority of gun carriers.
So should cops have guns? no. do they really need them? well, maybe. If we abolish guns i guarantee, as weve seen with prohibition, there would be under the table gun sales, and then what, they get arrested? yea that wont solve anything. So an armless police force will not fair well. But i sure dont think we should be able to walk into wal-mart and buy guns. Maybe it should be controlled by like, the FBI and you have to go through a huge process to own one. Hunting? ok, lets lease guns - you have a background check and a signed contract defining what the gun is used for, where it will be used, and it has to be returned in 7 days. If not, were coming after you. haha. do hunters need guns all year round? hmm, none that i know.



If Rodney King had a gun, I'm sure those cops would have been blown away.
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Unread Apr 17th, 2007, 12:23 PM   #4 (permalink)
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42,443 deaths in USA 2001 from automobiles. http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/a/auto...ury/deaths.htm

Ban all automobiles, and then I will lease a gun from the government to go hunting.
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Unread Apr 17th, 2007, 12:39 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default guns for hunting is ok

but guns in big cities and residential areas should be restricted or totally prohibited ..

easy answer to this .. but true !?
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Unread Apr 17th, 2007, 01:46 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by switters
42,443 deaths in USA 2001 from automobiles. http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/a/auto...ury/deaths.htm

Ban all automobiles, and then I will lease a gun from the government to go hunting.
You've been using this on both threads and I have to say, I don't get it. (most of the deaths are not vehicular homocide - most of the deaths related to guns are the result of homocide)

Also

Cars are useful.
Hunting is useful.
Rifles are useful.
Handguns & others...I still don't see where they play a useful role.

One more, to touch on the idea of "leasing" guns from the gov't....I couldn't help but fully oppose that.
Our right to bear arms has a lot to do with the idea of protection against the gov't.
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Unread Apr 17th, 2007, 02:34 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I should answer the question of the thread first. A gun is a tool.

I own guns, some are handguns, the rest are for hunting, elk hunting being one of my favorite pasttimes.

I have purchased most of them through the proper channels, two were given to me by my father. So I don't favor a ban on guns.

I have found a handgun to be usefull as a back-up when packing out meat from the woods when a rifle would have been unuseable due to the pack I use. I also rabbit hunt with a pistol.

I don't know any personally but I have heard anecdotal evidence that several women locally cary handguns for self protection. If you disagree then welcome to America. After growing up in a military and hunting family, and serving for 6 years I feel comfortable around weapons and view them as a tool. I understand that many people with different backgrounds see them as a threat.

A car is also a tool and accidentally kills more people than handguns do on purpose. If you don't understand that driving is statistically more dangerous than having the occasional armed citizen around you then so be it. It comes down to perception/opinion of what is a tool and what is not, or so I am guessing.

I do however find these discussions to be educational, and while I may not agree with what someone might say, I will do my best to consider what they have said and to respect their opinion. So if I come off as a grumpy old man, its because I am, but I still listen to what you are saying. That and I hate using emoticons, because they are an unfamiliar tool to me.

Good day,
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Unread Apr 17th, 2007, 03:01 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I believe I have a right to legally obtain a gun here, but I think it's quite a long process before you are eligible. I don't think we have a gun store, or I just haven't seen one yet... You certainly can't go shopping for arms here, and I'm very happy it is so...

Personally I only have one friend that I know owns a gun, and he's also a professional soldier. He doesn't carry it on him, though, he just keeps it at home. I can count on fingers of one hand the times I have seen a real gun on others than authorities, and I was raised in one of the "baddest" areas around. A place you'd call a ghetto and is infamous all around our country (for all the wrong reasons)...

Sure, we have shootings here, but they are very rare and it's mostly mobs and thugs doing each other off...

We once had a scholar who chopped his teachers head with an axe. He'd probably make it to the cnn if he had an uzzy...


There isn't much you can do about guns, banning them won't do the job. Guns are not the problem. The problem lies elsewhere, and it lies deep. We open the closet and a lot of skeletons may fall out. That's a topic for a thread with a different name, though. But, are you ready?


Keep guns away from me. I'll leave the hunting to the hunters, I'm more of a gatherer myself...
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Unread Apr 17th, 2007, 03:13 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I'm really starting to lean towards the argument that we should ban handguns. Guns that are difficult to conceal, rifles and shotguns, should be licensed, but only after considerable training and evaluations.
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Unread Apr 17th, 2007, 03:26 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockymtns4fr
I'm really starting to lean towards the argument that we should ban handguns. Guns that are difficult to conceal, rifles and shotguns, should be licensed, but only after considerable training and evaluations.
In another thread you gave two examples of how handguns were used to prevent further violence. But you sound like you have been thinking about this alot, and so have we all.

I would be interested in knowing what kind of "training and evaluations" people think would be necessary.
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Unread Apr 17th, 2007, 03:33 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by switters
42,443 deaths in USA 2001 from automobiles.
Ban all automobiles, and then I will lease a gun from the government to go hunting.
Yep, 45,113 according to the CDC (www cdc gov).

Want to know how many were violence-related (as opposed to unintentional?) 159.

Guns? 28,685.

Fact of the matter is, the easier it is to kill people, the easier it can be done. Politicians order killing all the time because they are detached - they "hit the button" and it's done.

knife deaths are lower than gun deaths because 1) it's harder to stab someone than shoot them (you have to get upclose and personal) and 2) it's less lethal as well.

Think about it, if a technology was released that let you kill people even easier than with a gun, would the number of deaths increase, or decrease?

Sheesh. Blows my mind when people try to say that guns (*especially* handguns) aren't the problem.
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Unread Apr 17th, 2007, 03:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I don't think banning handguns will change much. Remember a handgun is a tool, and people kill people. I think it is a bad argument when you say that the more handguns that are available to people, causes more violence and homicides. There is a correlation, but it is not cause and effect.
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Unread Apr 17th, 2007, 03:55 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orenwolf
Yep, 45,113 according to the CDC (www cdc gov).

Want to know how many were violence-related (as opposed to unintentional?) 159.

Guns? 28,685.

Fact of the matter is, the easier it is to kill people, the easier it can be done. Politicians order killing all the time because they are detached - they "hit the button" and it's done.

knife deaths are lower than gun deaths because 1) it's harder to stab someone than shoot them (you have to get upclose and personal) and 2) it's less lethal as well.

Think about it, if a technology was released that let you kill people even easier than with a gun, would the number of deaths increase, or decrease?

Sheesh. Blows my mind when people try to say that guns (*especially* handguns) aren't the problem.
Would we be correct in assuming you meant to say murders instead of deaths?

And

Apparently it is easier to kill people with automobile technology, according to the statistics you provided.

I went to CDC, a good site. I found that assault (homicide) 15th rank was 17,357 deaths in 2004 which the latest they have complete numbers for. This did not have a break down by method of assault. It was disturbing to see that suicide ranked 11th. Just wondering where the 28,685 number came from, specifically what year, I dont doubt your research.
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Unread Apr 17th, 2007, 04:01 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paxton
There isn't much you can do about guns, banning them won't do the job. Guns are not the problem. The problem lies elsewhere, and it lies deep.
Isn't that the truth. i totally agree with what you are saying, and this is one thing that troubles me, because no matter what legislation is passed, no matter what activists say or do, a f**ked up society is a f**ked up society. Who knows where we went wrong, or what the final consequence will be, but it saddens me to hear about so many murders, suicides, beatings, and instances of mal-treatment, hate, discrimination, unacceptance, and corruption. i dont care if it's been around for years and im young and dumb, but seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockymtns4fr
I'm really starting to lean towards the argument that we should ban handguns. Guns that are difficult to conceal, rifles and shotguns, should be licensed, but only after considerable training and evaluations.
yes. i understand the argument against bans. i understand the 2nd amendment. but my earlier post still stands. and i agree with your point Rm4fr. why should we be allowed to conceal weapons?!? the word conceal means hide - and if youre keeping something harmful from others' sight, then doesnt that just seem suspicious?
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Unread Apr 17th, 2007, 06:05 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Turn in your guns and get free marijuana.

issue soooooooooolved
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Unread Apr 18th, 2007, 12:47 AM   #16 (permalink)
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A pistol for personal protection is not at all a bad thing provided it is treated with responsibility and only for its due purpose. Responsibility and moral soundness is the difference in anything, be it guns, cars, alcohol, gas grills, etc. Stripping someone of self protection is not a solution to anything. Why is self protection necessary? Well, I for one will soon be married and I want my wife to be to be safe, and she is small statured and often travels through bad areas to and from work, and her work puts her in front of psychologically dangerous people. Just about any man of average to large build could have a bat, a knife, a lug wrench, or any other possible weapon and let's just say she won't always have the luxury of being on my family farm or at home where the rifles are kept. I don't want her with any less than the ability to remove the threat to her and any kids we may have without a doubt in her mind. No way in hell do I want criminals thinking they have open access to harm anyone I love without the possibility of immediate and decisive intervention. If they know that there is no possibility of her being armed then they have a lot less to fear...and you can bet I don't give a rat's butt for them getting convicted after the fact instead her being alive and unharmed. These days our court system often leaves a lot to be desired just in terms of being effective at all, let alone being something criminals fear. Even if she doesn't have anything on her at the time, the possibility that she might be is at her defense already. If you can honestly tell me you'd rather your wife be killed, robbed, or raped than for her to be able to legally carry a pistol for her defense or at least have the option just because you think someone who would commit such a crime MIGHT be slightly impeded, which is a might at best......then I seriously question your honesty, grasp of reality, sanity, or at very your least priorities. As for defending myself, well, if nothing else then it's out of responsibility to those I love to see I am safe for them- I don't want the possibility of my kids having to ask why they don't have a dad because some political correct morons thought he should be completely accessable to the next crackhead, meth head, psychopath, or thief who cares nothing for the law or the people it supposedly protects and takes advantage of a free target. It is a fact civilization has always had criminals and always will, regardless of particular weapons available at the time. It is a fact that intervention by official law enforcement and later the courts is always after the fact. It is sadly a fact that for some reason or another we have more criminals today than we once did- I won't attempt to explain why. For those wondering why concealed carry is the way to go, well, three main reasons: so those who are not armed may still be presumed so by would be attackers, so that said attackers would not deliberately try to pre-emptively attack those who do carry, and so uninvolved parties are not alarmed by their presence, which goes on every day and people go about their lives undisturbed by those who lawfully protect themselves. Odds are you walk among such people every day and don't even know it, as they bring absolutely no harm to you by doing so and could in the event of a dangerous situation save your very life. I can't say what the percentage is here but it's probably low, yet there's no telling how many crimes don't take place because they could be ended before they start.

All that said, I've been a hunter, gun owner, and respectable law abiding citizen my whole life, not someone random fool just spouting off stuff. I occasionally carry a pistol with me hunting and while checking on the land because of unfriendly wildlife, not unfriendly people. Many people hiking or mountain biking, which I also enjoy, do so for the same reason. I haven't seen a need for public carry where I live, but if my circumstances dictate that I should then I will. There are many respectable people who by their job nature are well served to arm themselves: bartenders, lawyers, certain clerks, store owners, couriers, jewelers, food delivery people, UPS/Fedex drivers, truck drivers, barge/tugboat drivers (They run into a LOT of drug runners- i've known a few personally who have...scary), and photographers (can have over $5000 around their neck in one camera...have been one myself) just to name a few.

Keep law abiding people able to carry personal protection. Get rid of the scumbags, not the guns.
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Unread Apr 18th, 2007, 04:19 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Xenomorph
I don't think banning handguns will change much. Remember a handgun is a tool, and people kill people. I think it is a bad argument when you say that the more handguns that are available to people, causes more violence and homicides. There is a correlation, but it is not cause and effect.

some crimes here are traced to one single gun being passed on.

A gun is not only a tool, it can be used for sports and to some unfortunately it is a compensation for their weak personality. That's when you get bad headlines.
A handgun ban won't solve anything. England has one, not sure about Wales and Scotland but it is perfectly alright to have handguns (licensed) in Northern Ireland (what an irony). It's all down to your personal responsibilty.
I own a few rifles from clay pigeon shotguns to full bore 7.62, sorry mean .308 and they are kept in two cabinets but the bolts in a different one with the ammo.
Though we have a handgun ban gun crime is on the rise. It's a culture thing, as long as people portray it as cool to carry and use them ( I avoid mentioning a certain music and lifestyle) people won't get the message.
Same for the self-protection aspect. What gun would you think is adequate for your GF to carry? .22, I think the thug starts laughing heartily and just proceeds; 8 mm, he may twinkle a little; 9mm, .357, .45 or even .50 and we start talking about stopping power.
But can you imagine your petite girlfriend holding a Desert Eagle steadily?
Is she fit for the mental challenge that comes with using it? Martial arts might be more appropiate, you also learn to balance your emotions and control your chemicals when experiencing a situation where you have to defend yourself.
Education.
That's what the US needs. Over are the days of pioneers holding a sidearm but as long as attitudes like Mr Heston's prevail you will carry on collecting guns "from cold dead hands".
unfortunately that comes after cleaning up cold dead bodies as well.
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Unread Apr 18th, 2007, 06:44 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Allow me to get heated and step in with a biased view..

Why does the American government fail to realise that all this shit happens because they are more than happy to legalise guns for the public??

In the UK, you do not get kids walking in to universities blazing away like some kinda mad computer game....why? Because you cannot posses a gun in this country just like that.

I have all the sympathy in the world for the victims...but to be honest that's as far as it goes....there'll be a next time for sure! Until America grows up and throws the guns away.

Give me a reason why you NEED a gun??

Hunting? - You dont need to hunt
Protection? - Ironic, protection from another person with a gun?

WHat the hell else can you do with a gun other than shoot it??

Ornament - no
Tea maker - no
telephone - no
water your plants - no
sexual tool - perhaps but unlikely


I could go on but it's pointless

Ban the guns and there....you're problem will be over (or as uncommon as it is in every other country where arms are illegal)

Come on America you're a big boy now. Put the toys away.
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Unread Apr 18th, 2007, 07:04 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Ok, I think that even here (but especially in the US) it's irresponsible NOT to own a firearm and know to operate it. Yea, sure, I'm with you on the fact that they never should have existed, but the fact is they do. What are you going to do when someone comes to your house, how will you protect your family? My online friend from Virginia wouldn't get stabbed in the chest by a drunk guy who entered his house if he had a gun. Now he has several.
If there was an armed security guard in Virginia Tech, or if atleast one student was packing, I can imagine alot less deaths.

Banning anything will solve nothing. Ban guns and you get a narcotics prohibition scenario - illegal market, more people in jail, and the real purpose of the ban unachieved - people who want guns will get guns regardless of law. Outlaw guns and you have only outlaws possess guns, and make ordinary people's self defense a greater issue.

I can't believe there are countries i Europe where MACE is illegal.
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Unread Apr 18th, 2007, 07:52 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Beadies
Allow me to get heated and step in with a biased view..

Why does the American government fail to realise that all this shit happens because they are more than happy to legalise guns for the public??

In the UK, you do not get kids walking in to universities blazing away like some kinda mad computer game....why? Because you cannot posses a gun in this country just like that.

I have all the sympathy in the world for the victims...but to be honest that's as far as it goes....there'll be a next time for sure! Until America grows up and throws the guns away.

Give me a reason why you NEED a gun??

Hunting? - You dont need to hunt
Protection? - Ironic, protection from another person with a gun?

WHat the hell else can you do with a gun other than shoot it??

Ornament - no
Tea maker - no
telephone - no
water your plants - no
sexual tool - perhaps but unlikely


I could go on but it's pointless

Ban the guns and there....you're problem will be over (or as uncommon as it is in every other country where arms are illegal)

Come on America you're a big boy now. Put the toys away.

AMEN....



btw: American people (the majorty, not all) think that owning a gun is a Constitutional right ...well than, better learn to grieve the dead
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