GUNS, what to do about 'em

[-XeRo-]

Banning firearms is just plain retarted. They have been around for how long???!?! and do you think they will ever go away?? hell no.

Im assuming this has something to do with that college massacre that happened recently, and if not, heres my thoughts on guns...

How easy is it to stop a suicidal terrorist? How easy is it to stop any sick minded person that has some serious mental brainwashed issues, that is so dedicated to killing as many innocent people that are on his/her to hit list that runs into a college for example and starts blasting away at any and everyone that they HATE and have the time of their life doing it im sure...????

Do you know how hard it is to stop/prevent someone who is soon to be famous for being a heartless bastard who wants to kill everyone that isnt like them, not knowing when they will attack, and preventing ANY kind of shooting?

So, say they do outlaw firearms, do you REALLY think it will have a huge impact on lowering the number of shootings?? hell no.

People that do things like this are unstoppable in many ways. IF for some dumbass reason they actually do ban guns... as soon as that goes into effect, there is going to be one hell of an underground market for weapons.

Where I live, just about every single house has some type of gun in their house. (for protection/hunting) Yes, shit happens, a lot... but everything happens for a reason IMO, but.. what the hell is wrong with carrying a weapon to defend YOUR OWN LIFE? (which could be tomorrow or any other day)...and yeh its basic common sense that guns will end up in the wrong hands of someone who will use it the illegal way, but thats guarunteed to happen.

In Texas, I have every right to shoot someone that comes onto my property with the intentions of doing either killing me or wanting to bash my skull in the concrete... because of a no trespassing sign... its either your life or theirs, you decide.

[-XeRo-]

Originally Posted by The Beadies

Allow me to get heated and step in with a biased view..

Why does the American government fail to realise that all this shit happens because they are more than happy to legalise guns for the public?? -things arent the same here as they are over there, did that ever come across your mind? we have our reasons, they OBVIOUSLY need to investigate the buyer's more.

In the UK, you do not get kids walking in to universities blazing away like some kinda mad computer game....why? Because you cannot posses a gun in this country just like that. -your talking about the UK! im apologize, I forgot how your country should be running this world since everything is so damn perfect over there!

I have all the sympathy in the world for the victims...but to be honest that's as far as it goes....there'll be a next time for sure! Until America grows up and throws the guns away. -yeh, we need to grow up, our country isnt anything compared to the big bad UK now is it? thats how you make it sound... talk about one hell of en ego for a Kingdom

Give me a reason why you NEED a gun?? - the other nite, this black guy tried to rob me, my truck, and everything he could've got his hands on... I had a knife I could have used, but if he put my life in jeapordy, and I had a pistol, you bet your ass I would've taken his life over mine in a heartbeat!!!!

Hunting? - You dont need to hunt so a man that lives 100 miles out alone in the woods doesnt need a gun to feed himself with some nice NATURAL meat you mean?! and yeh, the Indians, and EVERY other human being that has ever killed something because WE AS HUMANS are the top dogs on this food chain KILL animals to SURVIVE AND EAT
Protection? - Ironic, protection from another person with a gun?
yeh... everything is just so perfect where you live, why dont you come down here to a major city and walk down a street with nothing but african americans (no offence intended, just look at the crime rate statistics) who would rob you at knife/gunpoint in a heartbeat, just for a buck or two to get high.
WHat the hell else can you do with a gun other than shoot it??
bOrnament - no
Tea maker - no
telephone - no
water your plants - no
sexual tool - perhaps but unlikely
please explain WHY you would compare a GUN THAT KILLS to stupid sh1t like a tea maker, water for plants, a telephone..?!?!?! hahahhaha

I could go on but it's pointless

Ban the guns and there....you're problem will be over (or as uncommon as it is in every other country where arms are illegal) oh because it may seem to work where you live, that means it will work here???

Come on America you're a big boy now. Put the toys away.

yeh... come on America... remember, guns are "toys"

[DJ Mallorca]

I don't know what alarms me more about the post above, the references to black men being bad or the jealousy aimed at the UK.......

As a British citizen (yes, they actually do exist in scotland contrary to what the "independent" sunsa bitches think) I have noticed the sudden gun culture which is on the rise. Yeah sure in the US it has been going around for ages, if a gun crime was to appear on the news it would probably take up the whole programme whereas over here it is drama drama drama. 14 year old boys in London (The new USA???) running around popping people off because they are in a diffent gang or maybe they go to church or play golf.... who knows

Has anyone saw a really old Charlie Sheen (I think it was him) movie where him and his buddy get their hands on a hand cannon and start carjacking and shit. I'm sure the police captain in that movie says that more people are getting guns than having sex.... it is a really old movie so my memory ain't that hot..... anyways - we as a Kingdom cannot deny that guns are on the increase in Great Britain yet we have stricter laws than the US. Where are the guns coming from?? so many possibilities, could be immigrants bringing them over.... whatever

Basically British people are in no position to say what America should be doing with guns when our beloved nation is being ploughed with, and I quote a Gorrilaz track, Kids with guns

[augustus]

Originally Posted by DJ Mallorca

I don't know what alarms me more about the post above, the references to black men being bad or the jealousy aimed at the UK.......

As a British citizen (yes, they actually do exist in scotland contrary to what the "independent" sunsa bitches think) I have noticed the sudden gun culture which is on the rise. Yeah sure in the US it has been going around for ages, if a gun crime was to appear on the news it would probably take up the whole programme whereas over here it is drama drama drama. 14 year old boys in London (The new USA???) running around popping people off because they are in a diffent gang or maybe they go to church or play golf.... who knows

Has anyone saw a really old Charlie Sheen (I think it was him) movie where him and his buddy get their hands on a hand cannon and start carjacking and shit. I'm sure the police captain in that movie says that more people are getting guns than having sex.... it is a really old movie so my memory ain't that hot..... anyways - we as a Kingdom cannot deny that guns are on the increase in Great Britain yet we have stricter laws than the US. Where are the guns coming from?? so many possibilities, could be immigrants bringing them over.... whatever

Basically British people are in no position to say what America should be doing with guns when our beloved nation is being ploughed with, and I quote a Gorrilaz track, Kids with guns

The fact that it is considered newsworthy to mention these kid gangsters in Peckham killing each other is because it is so rare. May well be on the increase but still tiny. Gun murder rate in USA is 30 times that of UK! Yes 30!

The fact is there is no point talking to Americans about guns. There is a fundamentally different mentality - see what follows a gun massacre:
USA - sh1t! We must arm all our students so they can defend each other
UK - ban guns all the way down to pea shooters to the extent that hand gun sportsmen have to go to Switzerland to train for the Olympics.

I still think UK is better. I dont know what it must be like living is USA where you are too scared to complain to someone about their behaviour in case they pull out a gun.

[Return of the Socks]

You know what? How about I don't pull out a gun and bash a random persons head in. It would be more painful and would take less time to pull out a gun. It isn't the guns that create the problem, it's the people. Take away a mental persons gun, he will stab you in the back with a knife. Hmm??? Did that solve the problem? NO!!! People are stupid to believe that guns are the problem. Brain washed people, thinking that guns are the problem. "I'm afraid because the people here carry guns; they could hurt me." Total crap! If they wanted to hurt you they could easily do it without the gun. It's sad that a free country is becoming enslaved by anti gun eduacation and stupid people. "Well, if I cant carry a gun, the police will protect me." The police don't protect crap! You saw VirginiaT; they got their butts owned because the police suck. They didn't show up during the crime; they showed up afterwards. If you arm yourself you won't be as afraid because you know that you have a gun. If you cant get a gun, get a knife. There is no difference between getting murdered with a gun or getting murdered with a fist; you just got murdered!!!

[switters]

I dont think the knife idea will work either. There is a knife ban in England and they have a very high incident of knife crime.

Many criminologists now believe that people carrying a knife is a bigger threat than people carrying guns - this is based on a 60% increase in recorded incidents of knife carrying during the 6 years between 1999 - 2004

http://www.insight-security.com/fact...rime-stats.htm

Why so many violent crimes with knives in England and especially London?

[DJ Mallorca]

Maybe it's the culture, The US has the gun culture, UK has a knife culture.......

Maybe guns are hard to get in Britain so they have a knife instead......

Who knows!

[Yellowfin]

It is sad to see that there are so many people here whose only view and experience with guns is in connection with crime and movies, and base their entire opinions upon such. That's like me visualizing and commenting on airline travel having never flown, been in an airport, and never even seeing an airline ticket in person, using only news footage of Pan Am 103 and the movies "Airplane" and "Snakes on a Plane" to go by. That such limited information is used to form opinions you are so convinced by and then take them as fact is utterly astounding to me and seems a horrid failing of intellect.

Have ANY of you people in here besides me EVER (let alone within the last 3-4 weeks):
1. Owned a rifle and/or shotgun or pistol.
2. Had family members and/or friends who do.
3. Spent a day at a rifle range.
4. Shot clays.
5. Hunted.
6. Attended a hunting/firearms safety course.
7. Reloaded ammunition.
8. Participated in competitive shooting.

[-XeRo-]

Originally Posted by Yellowfin

It is sad to see that there are so many people here whose only view and experience with guns is in connection with crime and movies, and base their entire opinions upon such. That's like me visualizing and commenting on airline travel having never flown, been in an airport, and never even seeing an airline ticket in person, using only news footage of Pan Am 103 and the movies "Airplane" and "Snakes on a Plane" to go by. That such limited information is used to form opinions you are so convinced by and then take them as fact is utterly astounding to me and seems a horrid failing of intellect.

Have ANY of you people in here besides me EVER (let alone within the last 3-4 weeks):
1. Owned a rifle and/or shotgun or pistol.
2. Had family members and/or friends who do.
3. Spent a day at a rifle range.
4. Shot clays.
5. Hunted.
6. Attended a hunting/firearms safety course.
7. Reloaded ammunition.
8. Participated in competitive shooting.

Yeh, yesterday.

my friend and i had to grab 2 12" gauges to protect me from this insane redneck IN CASE he showed up @ the house, we had a NO TRESPASSING sign up (meaning we could give him a very quick trip to hell). Now, this man is a father of 4 who is about 39... He had a party in his house, there were about 20 underage minors there verrry drunk, and out of nowhere for no reason at all, this man cheap-shots me right in the face and almost knocked me out. I didnt fight back, just asked him what the f*ck his problem was and was told to leave by others, which i politely did.

Anyways, this guy is about 6'3" and about 200+ lbs, im 5'7", 150lbs. Flipped him off yesterday when he was outside, he comes running after me yelling every known curse word in his mind wanting me to come to him so he could kick my ass for lifting my middle finger up at him So I come to a stop sign and the bastard threw a brick that came 2 feet from hitting a $44k show truck... so i head back to my friends house which he knew where we would be, since the cops showed up there and questioned me about what happened.

Just an example of using guns for PROTECTION.


- btw, this latest school massacre was a treat for the democrats and such, they are jumping allll over it for brownie points for their campaign.

[augustus]

Originally Posted by switters

I dont think the knife idea will work either. There is a knife ban in England and they have a very high incident of knife crime.

Many criminologists now believe that people carrying a knife is a bigger threat than people carrying guns - this is based on a 60% increase in recorded incidents of knife carrying during the 6 years between 1999 - 2004

http://www.insight-security.com/fact...rime-stats.htm

Why so many violent crimes with knives in England and especially London?

If you were thrown into to the gladiator's ring, which weapon would you choose (bearing in mind the other person will get the same)?
1. Your fists
2. A knife
3. A gun

Which would be the easiest way for you to kill someone?
4. Beating them up with your fists/feet
5. Stab them in the chest
6. Pull the trigger

For me it would be 1 - more chance of survival and 6 - more indirect and there less emotional attachment. But maybe I'm just wierd.

[Return of the Socks]

Originally Posted by Yellowfin

It is sad to see that there are so many people here whose only view and experience with guns is in connection with crime and movies, and base their entire opinions upon such. That's like me visualizing and commenting on airline travel having never flown, been in an airport, and never even seeing an airline ticket in person, using only news footage of Pan Am 103 and the movies "Airplane" and "Snakes on a Plane" to go by. That such limited information is used to form opinions you are so convinced by and then take them as fact is utterly astounding to me and seems a horrid failing of intellect.

Have ANY of you people in here besides me EVER (let alone within the last 3-4 weeks):
1. Owned a rifle and/or shotgun or pistol.
2. Had family members and/or friends who do.
3. Spent a day at a rifle range.
4. Shot clays.
5. Hunted.
6. Attended a hunting/firearms safety course.
7. Reloaded ammunition.
8. Participated in competitive shooting.

2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Not very competitive. I know people who havn't even hurd a gun. My retarded public school says no popping plastic bags, because it sounds like a gun. I popped one and I got a warning, and I still laugh when I think about it. Instead of creating anti gun eduacation, why not gun handling eduacation?

[faerie dust]

Originally Posted by Yellowfin

A pistol for personal protection is not at all a bad thing provided it is treated with responsibility and only for its due purpose. Responsibility and moral soundness is the difference in anything, be it guns, cars, alcohol, gas grills, etc. Stripping someone of self protection is not a solution to anything. Why is self protection necessary? Well, I for one will soon be married and I want my wife to be to be safe, and she is small statured and often travels through bad areas to and from work, and her work puts her in front of psychologically dangerous people. Just about any man of average to large build could have a bat, a knife, a lug wrench, or any other possible weapon and let's just say she won't always have the luxury of being on my family farm or at home where the rifles are kept. I don't want her with any less than the ability to remove the threat to her and any kids we may have without a doubt in her mind. No way in hell do I want criminals thinking they have open access to harm anyone I love without the possibility of immediate and decisive intervention. If they know that there is no possibility of her being armed then they have a lot less to fear...and you can bet I don't give a rat's butt for them getting convicted after the fact instead her being alive and unharmed. These days our court system often leaves a lot to be desired just in terms of being effective at all, let alone being something criminals fear. Even if she doesn't have anything on her at the time, the possibility that she might be is at her defense already. If you can honestly tell me you'd rather your wife be killed, robbed, or raped than for her to be able to legally carry a pistol for her defense or at least have the option just because you think someone who would commit such a crime MIGHT be slightly impeded, which is a might at best......then I seriously question your honesty, grasp of reality, sanity, or at very your least priorities. As for defending myself, well, if nothing else then it's out of responsibility to those I love to see I am safe for them- I don't want the possibility of my kids having to ask why they don't have a dad because some political correct morons thought he should be completely accessable to the next crackhead, meth head, psychopath, or thief who cares nothing for the law or the people it supposedly protects and takes advantage of a free target. It is a fact civilization has always had criminals and always will, regardless of particular weapons available at the time. It is a fact that intervention by official law enforcement and later the courts is always after the fact. It is sadly a fact that for some reason or another we have more criminals today than we once did- I won't attempt to explain why. For those wondering why concealed carry is the way to go, well, three main reasons: so those who are not armed may still be presumed so by would be attackers, so that said attackers would not deliberately try to pre-emptively attack those who do carry, and so uninvolved parties are not alarmed by their presence, which goes on every day and people go about their lives undisturbed by those who lawfully protect themselves. Odds are you walk among such people every day and don't even know it, as they bring absolutely no harm to you by doing so and could in the event of a dangerous situation save your very life. I can't say what the percentage is here but it's probably low, yet there's no telling how many crimes don't take place because they could be ended before they start.

All that said, I've been a hunter, gun owner, and respectable law abiding citizen my whole life, not someone random fool just spouting off stuff. I occasionally carry a pistol with me hunting and while checking on the land because of unfriendly wildlife, not unfriendly people. Many people hiking or mountain biking, which I also enjoy, do so for the same reason. I haven't seen a need for public carry where I live, but if my circumstances dictate that I should then I will. There are many respectable people who by their job nature are well served to arm themselves: bartenders, lawyers, certain clerks, store owners, couriers, jewelers, food delivery people, UPS/Fedex drivers, truck drivers, barge/tugboat drivers (They run into a LOT of drug runners- i've known a few personally who have...scary), and photographers (can have over $5000 around their neck in one camera...have been one myself) just to name a few.

Keep law abiding people able to carry personal protection. Get rid of the scumbags, not the guns.

this is a pristine response. i agree wholeheartedly!

[switters]

Originally Posted by Yellowfin

Have ANY of you people in here besides me EVER (let alone within the last 3-4 weeks):
1. Owned a rifle and/or shotgun or pistol.
2. Had family members and/or friends who do.
3. Spent a day at a rifle range.
4. Shot clays.
5. Hunted.
6. Attended a hunting/firearms safety course.
7. Reloaded ammunition.
8. Participated in competitive shooting.

1. all
2. of course
3. more than I can count
4. yes
5. every year
6. required to hunt in Colorado/ two weeks on the range in the service.
7. don't own my equipment, familiar with the process
8. no, unless shooting at targets during hunting camp to see who has to do the dishes counts.

Interesting list of questions, a good companion to this thread.

[quetzalcoatl]

^i will indulge

1. i haven't spent my own money on a gun yet
2. my friends and family have spent money on guns
3. a rifle range is different than 'regular' range i guess
4. shooting clays looks hard.. does everyone use buckshot?
5. never hunted with gunpowder
6. an official gun-safety course? no
7. slip-click-cock... but replacing the bullets one-by-one sucks
8. i guess trying to out-shoot your friends is competition





ok, this comment will catch a lot of flak but i still feel everyone should have a pistol... maybe there could be an age limit but my point is that if someone is gonna stick someone up for their car or for their register, there should be plenty of people around to make him think otherwise..


of course this won't deter people from killing, but at least they should be aware that if they fire upon someone, they should expect return fire from everyone.. i think that's a good way to keep criminal acts to a minimum



really what i'm proposing (and this may be a dangerous concept taken out of hand) is community policing.. or soemthing like that, i don't know what the term is.. like, in the future i imagine for our world, there should not be "Police" as far as people in uniforms and shit like that.. no police force or army for that matter.. in a sense, and this is the dangerous part, people should 'police' eachother

and i know this isn't a very easy concept to swallow.. but the emphasis is on the ordinary citizen take responsibility for their fellow citizens... cuase right now with the existence of the police force, our citizen attitude is "let the police take care of it" or "let soemone else take care of it"

you ought to take care of it, and everyone should share the same responsibility... we're family damnit now act like it

it's dangerous 'cause regular people policing eachother is what the government wants... but the problem is that they want us to turn each other in so we can be punished be forced to give even more money to the government

i do'nt want that to happen. i do'nt want a police force, i just want everyone to have the power to do something... or at least have the Feeling that they can change the world for the better, and i think having a gun might give them that power-responsibility feeling



yes i know this may seem impractical to a lot of you cause you don't want those 'scumbags' to have guns... we're all scumbags sometimes and that's just cause we temporarily lost our way but we were fortunate enough to have people to care enough about us to lead us back in the right direction.. i think those 'scumbags' you so detest are the people that need our help the most






and one more thought i've had for a while:
if a stranger walks into a room full of peopel with the intent to kill with a gun or knife or bat or bomb or whatever, it's up to the peopel to disable him and hopefully not kill him. everyone possible needs to rush him and tackle him and hug him tight enough that he can't possibly hurt anyone else. sure, people might die in the process, but where's that sense of dutiful sacrifice? you would lay your life on the line for your mother or your brother right? i already told you, we're all family. ---- obviously hugging your assailant takes a lot of balls, but what are you, a pussy?

[Mr. Pink]

Originally Posted by Yellowfin

Have ANY of you people in here besides me EVER (let alone within the last 3-4 weeks):
1. Owned a rifle and/or shotgun or pistol.
2. Had family members and/or friends who do.
3. Spent a day at a rifle range.
4. Shot clays.
5. Hunted.
6. Attended a hunting/firearms safety course.
7. Reloaded ammunition.
8. Participated in competitive shooting.

1) Yes...grew up with them
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) Yes
5) Yes
6) Yes...first time when I was 12 (give or take)
7) No...My dad had the setup though
8) No


After reading the obvious comment about the process and inadequacies that would be involved in executing any sort of handgun ban, I have to agree that the idea is completely pointless.

I still don't agree with the necessity of handguns and I know that is a personal opinion. As nearly everyone has pointed out in one way or another, the handgun is purposed in three ways...sport of aim, sport of hunt, and to kill humans.
To me, they aren't vital to our right to defend ourselves and outside of a limited few situations that would otherwise be considered superfluous, they don't serve a purpose that is unique to the handgun.
In other words, hunting with pistols can be a unique experience but it's not necessary for the act of hunting.

I've seen in this thread alone though that my experience in MN isn't nearly thorough enough to speak for hunting in general. We just don't have the type of wildlife that we need to worry about in the respect that a handgun would ward off an attacking predator.
So I say all this knowing that my experience can't account for the whole.

It is surprising that a country that embraces so dearly it's right to bear arms does so little to educate it's people.
We all know it doesn't take much knowlege to grab and fire off a weapon.
And what is worse is when you add that to the unstable emotion.

I grew up understanding and respecting weapons. I don't have or use them now. But it's not out of fear or misconception.
Many of you have also grown up understanding and respecting weapons...and you still use them. For many it's actually a part of your lifestyle. You understand the whens/wheres/whys/and hows.
And then there are those who understand weapons but don't have the respect for them. They are the ones that see guns as a tool for realizing their emotion.

But then again our schools have a hard enough time trying to figure out whether or not to teach about sex ed in the classrooms.
We're clearly in over our heads.

One last thing I want to bring up is this...
It's not necessarily an attempt to rebut Switters article so much as it is to give example that there is another side to the argument. John Lott likes to show hard numbers to represent fact of opinion. This article will try to show that although Lott may not be wrong, he may not necessarily have anything to to truly back what he is saying either.

Donohue, J.J. (2004), “Guns, Crime, and the Impact of State Right-to-Carry Laws”, Fordham Law Review 73(2).
(The article I read is the third one down)

[switters]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

1)
One last thing I want to bring up is this...
It's not necessarily an attempt to rebut Switters article so much as it is to give example that there is another side to the argument. John Lott likes to show hard numbers to represent fact of opinion. This article will try to show that although Lott may not be wrong, he may not necessarily have anything to to truly back what he is saying either.

Donohue, J.J. (2004), “Guns, Crime, and the Impact of State Right-to-Carry Laws”, Fordham Law Review 73(2).
(The article I read is the third one down)

Good article, except for the bias at the end, where he says RTC (right to carry) laws bad, Brady bill good, even after proposing in his conclusion that rtc effects are sum zero. He is a better writer than Lott, imo.

Donahue cherry picks his statistics like everyone else, and the same way I pick links to articles when i want to make a point. But I like that we are getting some links to articles on here that present both sides and can make people think. I realize that people react to discussions on an emotional level, and its nice to a debate move beyond "out of my cold dead hands" VS "guns scare me and guns kill people"

[wanderer]

It would not make me feel any safer if the authorities were the only ones allowed to own firearms. On the contrary.

Statistically speaking we are far more likely to die in a car wreck, or from cancer, or a heart attack or commit suicide than we are by the hands of a gun toting lunatic.
(In the US, on the whole, National Geographic/US Census Bureau, '07)

Learn about and respect firearms, don't fear them.