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View Poll Results: What do you think they intended?
Republic 2 11.11%
Constitutional Republic (or Free Republic) 10 55.56%
Dictators Republic (or Unfree Republic) 0 0%
Communist Republic 0 0%
Democracy 2 11.11%
Social Democracy (Democracy with Socialist Ideal) 3 16.67%
Representative Democracy (Similiar to Democratic Oligarchy) 1 5.56%
Voters: 18. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread Apr 22nd, 2007, 04:51 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default What the Founding Fathers intended?

Many people don't like to talk about this because it is the most covered up scam in the modern world. What was America intended for, and what are others trying to implement?
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Unread Apr 22nd, 2007, 05:30 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Since you opened this thread, voice your views first.
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Unread Apr 22nd, 2007, 05:39 PM   #3 (permalink)
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something like that..
soc dem hmm i think they intended it good
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Unread Apr 22nd, 2007, 05:42 PM   #4 (permalink)
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but you know i mean.. we should all rule for our selves you know... like no government come on baby plz do it
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Unread Apr 22nd, 2007, 11:30 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I think it's a constitutional republic, because they said in the consititution, "guarantee every state a republican form of government". And because it's ruled by constitutional law, it's constitutionaly based. I don't want to tell others what to think, but from what I have deciphered, they didn't like democracies. I'm one of those people that don't believe everything their public school tells them.
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Unread Apr 22nd, 2007, 11:45 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I would also like to add, that democracy is more of a building block. It means majority rule. So if you said, Representative Liberal Democracy subject to judicial review, that would be a free Republic. But because Liberal and Democracy conflict in definition, it is not truly a possible form of government. Judicial review(right to a trial) makes it republican.

And do not connect this with republicans(they don't really prefer this).
And don't connect this with democrats(they favor communist socialist ideal now).
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Unread Apr 24th, 2007, 01:27 PM   #7 (permalink)
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"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first." - Thomas Jefferson

That's more and more true every day.

And also, explaining the calamitous mess we're in: "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." The problem is that currently our government has no fear for their jobs nor power because currently the people are not sufficiently organized nor informed nor solidified in the opinion that change is necessary and that it can and will be instituted. Change does not happen as it is now because both parties have become too entrenched and the most either of them have to fear is losing a slight edge to the other--no prospect currently exists for complete purging of them, only a replacement of one side of the status quo for the other. There is no fear of exposure because the people focus on too much else. There is no fear of replacement because party mechanisms decide who is put into place--the power doesn't change much. What is needed is fear of a viable substitute for each party, that if they don't do their job someone will be put in place TOMORROW to do it for them. Change is deliberately made a slow process by our framework, and it should be, but it has facilitated the political mechanisms to become so grotesquely inbred that it doesn't resemble in any way what we had during healthier years of our country.

"Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people, who have a right, from the frame of their nature, to knowledge, as their great Creator, who does nothing in vain, has given them understandings, and a desire to know; but besides this, they have a right, an indisputable, unalienable, indefeasible, divine right to that most dreaded and envied kind of knowledge, I mean, of the characters and conduct of their rulers." -- John Adams.
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Last edited by Yellowfin : Apr 24th, 2007 at 01:40 PM.
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Unread Apr 24th, 2007, 04:51 PM   #8 (permalink)
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It's funny that ever since the civil war people are becoming more dumb every day. It makes sense that the libertarian party was created, because many democrats and republicans have become very corrupt.

Let us celebrate tradition!!!
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Unread Apr 29th, 2007, 04:54 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Since the religion of the colonies/U.S. back then was Christian, do you think they meant to say, or should have said, "Christianity" instead of "religion" when creating the Bill Of Rights?
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Unread Apr 30th, 2007, 12:24 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockymtns4fr
Since the religion of the colonies/U.S. back then was Christian, do you think they meant to say, or should have said, "Christianity" instead of "religion" when creating the Bill Of Rights?
I don't know if that was a joke, but they gave freedom of religion, so no. Under god wasn't added tell relatively recently in the Pledge. They already came from a christian monarchy and that ment it wasn't really a right to have a christian religion; it was forced upon them. Thats why they created freedom of religion in the first place.
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Unread Apr 30th, 2007, 09:00 AM   #11 (permalink)
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You have to specify which founding fathers. It's not like they were all one big happy family. Many founding fathers had different ideals, which in turn led to a middle ground - the constitution and the bill of rights.
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Unread Apr 30th, 2007, 01:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
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^^
I think that's the point...they knew better than to base this new system on one person's agenda alone.
We all know that our founding fathers were really no different than any other politician when viewed by themself. They each had their high points and low points.
But what made them worthy of being remembered as the founding fathers is that for the most part they were able to transcend personal ambition and kept the bigger picture in mind.

What is amazing to me is that ever since then, we've only been able to aspire to that level of understanding and foresight.
It's been a long time since we've seen any major league politician in office that really listened for that bigger voice.
Instead we've been in a cycle of those only listening for the loudest voice.
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Unread May 1st, 2007, 04:02 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Just yell louder.
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Unread May 8th, 2007, 07:51 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I really like the way the founding fathers set us up, knowing that there's always two (or more) sides to every story, they made it so the extremists wouldn't win.
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Unread May 8th, 2007, 09:35 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockymtns4fr


I really like the way the founding fathers set us up, knowing that there's always two (or more) sides to every story, they made it so the extremists wouldn't win.

Sadly, we some how got around that. We have all sorts of crazy people trying to gain control. (George W Bush, John Kerry...) I guess it kinda fails when the only option is an extremist...

Some leaders are in favor of a North American Union, which is a police enforced socialist mega state. At first they clamed it was only economic (which was bad enough), but now it's pretty clear they want more. Things like a leader controled constitution overriding the United States constitution. Our judicial branch will become nothing more than a lower level.
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Unread May 16th, 2007, 12:20 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Return of the Socks
I guess it kinda fails when the only option is an extremist...
Mmmm, amen brutha.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Return of the Socks
Some leaders are in favor of a North American Union, which is a police enforced socialist mega state. At first they clamed it was only economic (which was bad enough), but now it's pretty clear they want more. Things like a leader controled constitution overriding the United States constitution. Our judicial branch will become nothing more than a lower level.
You serious ? Damn, that's scary.
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Unread May 17th, 2007, 11:06 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I had not respond this thread because I felt that the definition of the form of government 200 years ago does not make much of a difference to the current state of affairs now.

"Our Founders' faith in the viability of representative democracy rested on their trust in the wisdom of a well-informed citizenry, their ingenious design for checks and balances, and their belief that the rule of reason is the natural sovereign of a free people." -- Al Gore
http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...622015,00.html

A democracy means nothing if the voters do not make informed choices. A representative democracy means naught if representatives are 'managed' (by mass media, campaign funds, lobbyists). And a constitutional representative democracy is as much a hack job as the attempts to override the constitution.

The Founding Fathers intended the nation to be free from the scourges of ignorance, oppression and despair of the 'old world'. The form of government can only help, but not ensure, their vision. The dictatorship of Nazi Germany came out of a democractic republic with a constitution -- the form of government is but a tool, the people defines it.

PS: I apologise in advance if you find that I hijacked your thread. I would have picked "other" because I think their intention was not in any rigid system, but in the ability for everyone use the system with a brain.

Last edited by Pb : May 17th, 2007 at 11:48 PM.
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Unread May 19th, 2007, 01:19 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pb
I had not respond this thread because I felt that the definition of the form of government 200 years ago does not make much of a difference to the current state of affairs now.

"Our Founders' faith in the viability of representative democracy rested on their trust in the wisdom of a well-informed citizenry, their ingenious design for checks and balances, and their belief that the rule of reason is the natural sovereign of a free people." -- Al Gore
http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...622015,00.html

A democracy means nothing if the voters do not make informed choices. A representative democracy means naught if representatives are 'managed' (by mass media, campaign funds, lobbyists). And a constitutional representative democracy is as much a hack job as the attempts to override the constitution.

The Founding Fathers intended the nation to be free from the scourges of ignorance, oppression and despair of the 'old world'. The form of government can only help, but not ensure, their vision. The dictatorship of Nazi Germany came out of a democractic republic with a constitution -- the form of government is but a tool, the people defines it.

PS: I apologise in advance if you find that I hijacked your thread. I would have picked "other" because I think their intention was not in any rigid system, but in the ability for everyone use the system with a brain.
I agree that they didn't actualy want "Government", but the idea turned out to be a form of government anyway; "A Republic, if you can keep it".

And I want everyone to know that a Republic isn't because of Representatives, but because of a Judicial branch. Many Republics ignore so called "Representatives". Modern definitions corrupted historical definitions of governments to not confuse the people and their ignorance. The difference between a Republic and a, or any, Democracy is People ruling themselves and people ruling people. Or you could say Individualism vs Majoritarianism. If your confused or disgruntled try reading up on some of the founding fathers quotes, you will be surprised.

"We are a Republican Government. Real liberty
is never found in despotism or in the extremes of Democracy." Samuel Adams

"Remember, Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts
and murders itself! There never was a democracy that 'did not commit
suicide."' James Madison



The following are excerpts from a 156 page citizenship manual issued by the US War Department, November 30,1928, explaining the difference between a democracy and a republic.

The Franklin Delano Roosevelt White House later ordered all copies of this manual withdrawn from the Government Printing Office and all US Army posts and destroyed without explanation:


Prepared under the direction of the Chief of Staff.

CITIZENSHIP

This manual supersedes Manual of Citizenship Training The use of the publication The Constitution of the United States, by Harry Atwood, is by permission and courtesy of the author.

CITIZENSHIP Democracy:

A government of the masses. Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression. Results in mobocracy. Attitude toward property is communistic negating property rights. Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate, whether is be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences. Results in demogogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy.

CITIZENSHIP Republic:

Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best fitted to represent them. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles and established evidence, with a strict regard to consequences. A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass. Avoids the dangerous extreme of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice, contentment, and progress. Is the "standard form" of government throughout the world. A republic is a form of government under a constitution which provides for the election of

(1) an executive and (2) a legislative body, who working together in a representative capacity, have all the power of appointment, all power of legislation, all power to raise revenue and appropriate expenditures, and are required to create (3) a judiciary to pass upon the justice and legality of their government acts and to recognize (4) certain inherent individual rights.

Take away any one or more of those four elements and you are drifting into autocracy. Add one or more to those four elements and you are drifting into democracy.

Autocracy declares the divine right of kings; its authority can not be questioned; its powers are arbitrarily or unjustly administered. Democracy is the direct rule of the people and has been repeatedly tried without success. Our Constitutional fathers, familiar with the strength and weakness of both autocracy and democracy, with fixed principles definitely in mind, defined a representative republican form of government. They made a very marked distinction between a republic and a democracy and said repeatedly and emphatically that they had founded a republic.

By order of the Secretary of War: C.P. Summerall, Major General, Chief of Staff. Official: Lutz Wahl, Major General, The Adjutant General.

That was 1928. By 1952 however, the new Army Field Manual read:

"Meaning of democracy. Because the United States is a democracy, the majority of the people decide how our government will be organized and run and that includes the Army, Navy, and Air Force. The people do this by electing representatives, and these men and women then carry out the wishes of the people.



"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
Thomas Jefferson, 1816.
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